Religion to Reality

Episode 6: Breaking Down Barriers to Evangelization – Moving from Techniques to Authentic Encounter
Quick Summary
Why do so many Catholics struggle to share their faith, even when they want to? In this episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the personal and professional barriers that prevent Catholics from evangelizing effectively. Through conversations with Monica Martinez, parish lead at Hallow, Emily Ricci, founder and CEO of Gloriam Marketing, and Peter Andrastek, a senior consultant at the Evangelical Catholic, they discover that the solution isn’t more training or techniques, but something far more fundamental: authentic relationship, genuine encounter, and what you might call “pre-evangelization.” If you’ve ever felt uncomfortable with the word “evangelization” or wondered why your parish’s outreach efforts fall flat, this episode offers a refreshing perspective that puts listening, presence, and personal holiness before programs and strategies.
In This Episode, We Explore:

Why the word “evangelization” makes many Catholics uncomfortable (1:00)
“There needs to be almost what I would think call a pre-evangelization that takes priority over evangelization… It’s so much caught up in the whole realm of listening, proactively hearing what people are saying and hearing it well.” – Fr. John Gribowich

The medium is the message: How Jesus embodies this truth (3:00)
Understanding the incarnation as the ultimate example of medium as message
Why focusing on doctrine first can muddy the real goal of evangelization

Post-COVID parish evangelization efforts (7:00)
Monica Martinez shares what’s working: welcoming gestures, hospitality, and simple recognition of new visitors
How one parish’s director of evangelization makes newcomers feel valued

Why Mass is often the wrong entry point for evangelization (9:00)
The complexity barrier for outsiders: “This is boring. Why am I here?”
The importance of encounter over information: “It’s not so much about saying ‘tell me that God loves me.’ It’s experiencing the love of God.”

Teaching Masses as a tool for formation (13:00)
Father John’s experiences with Pre-Cana couples, RCIA candidates, and high school students
When and how teaching Masses work effectively

The mutual evangelization principle (16:00)
“The person who feels called to evangelize needs to also equally feel called to be evangelized by the person they are trying to evangelize.” – Fr. John Gribowich
Recognizing that Christ is already at work in every person’s life

Parish marketing challenges and solutions (19:00)
Emily Ricci on the top three obstacles: lack of time, lack of skills, lack of finances
Why “product before promotion” matters: You need something worth inviting people to

The language problem in evangelization (22:00)
Moving from “what and where” to “why and how”
Using testimonial language from actual participants to communicate value

What parishes get wrong about evangelization (22:00)
“They’re typically very different… the parish that’s going to be in the best spot to evangelize is the parish that’s already active and vibrant.”
Why you need to engage people in the pews before reaching new people

The 12-step program model for Church community (33:00)
What the Church can learn: ritual, vulnerability, accessibility, and companionship
Shoutout to Catholic in Recovery (catholicinrecovery.org)
…

Episode 5: The Sacred Art of Listening – Understanding Spiritual Direction
Quick Summary
What does it mean to truly hear someone versus simply listening? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the transformative practice of spiritual direction—examining how this ancient tradition helps us tune into God’s presence in our daily lives. Through intimate conversations with three practitioners, discover why seeing yourself as lovable might be the most important spiritual work you’ll ever do, and learn how one diocese is making spiritual direction accessible to thousands. Whether you’re seeking your first spiritual director or wondering if this practice is right for you, this episode offers practical wisdom and surprising data about one of Catholicism’s most powerful yet underutilized resources.
In This Episode, We Explore:
Opening Reflection: Hearing vs. Listening (00:00)

Marshall McLuhan’s insight on electronic-age communication and the Gospel
The difference between restrictive listening and transformative hearing
Why Christ distinguished between scribes who listened and disciples who heard
Key Quote: “To listen is to blinker yourself… but to hear is to put yourself on the same wavelength as the speaker.” (02:00)

Interview with Mary Glowaski – Creating Gentle Spaces (04:00)
Mary Glowaski is a spiritual director based in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and serves as Dave’s spiritual director

Why gentleness matters more than technique in spiritual direction
The crucial distinction between being loved and seeing yourself as lovable (06:00)
Understanding whose we are, not just who we are (07:00)
How spiritual directors discern between spiritual direction, pastoral counseling, and mentoring (08:00)
The sacred trust of covenant confidentiality vs. simple confidentiality (10:00)
Key Quote: “Too often I find people, Dave, that it is not that they don’t feel loved, they don’t see themselves as lovable.” (06:45)

Confession and Direction: A Priestly Perspective (11:00)
Father John Gribowich reflects on the intersection of sacramental confession and spiritual direction

Why confession should be viewed as gratitude rather than legalism (13:00)
The challenge of complementing confession with spiritual direction
Rethinking “spiritual direction” as “spiritual guidance”
Why priests aren’t always the right choice for spiritual direction (22:00)

Interview with Deacon Tom Whalen – Building Diocesan Infrastructure (16:00)
Deacon Tom Whalen coordinates spiritual direction for the Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina

How one diaconate formation class revealed a massive gap in spiritual direction access (17:00)
Creating a diocesan-wide spiritual direction program from scratch
Why Spring Hill College’s graduate program became the foundation
The innovative model: spiritual directors work under pastors, not the chancery (19:00)
Addressing the supply and demand crisis in spiritual direction

Interview with Hans Plate – What the Data Reveals (23:00)
Hans Plate is founder and president of Vinea Research and partner on the Religion to Reality discipleship study

The surprising 100% statistic about spiritual direction availability (23:00)
Why many Catholics don’t understand what spiritual direction actually is
Hans’s personal journey: discovering spiritual direction through confession (25:00)
The challenge of finding the right match when directors relocate (26:00)
Com…

Religion to Reality Episode 4: Generational Differences in Discipleship
Quick Summary
In this thought-provoking episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the significant generational gap in Catholic discipleship and church attendance. Drawing from their recent discipleship study of mass-attending Catholics, they examine why younger generations are largely absent from churches and what can be done to bridge this divide.
The hosts speak with three experienced Catholic leaders who share practical insights on meeting the unique spiritual needs of different age groups: Mike St. Pierre (Diocese of Allentown Superintendent and former Catholic Campus Ministry Association Executive Director), Paul Morisi (Principal of Bay Ridge Catholic Academy and former Director of Youth and Young Adult Faith Formation for the Diocese of Brooklyn), and Friar Rick Riccioli (Franciscan Pastor in Brooklyn).
In this Episode, We Explore:
Opening Discussion: The Generational Church Gap [00:00:00 – 06:00]

Study results showing 75% Baby Boomer/Gen X participation vs. 2% Gen Z
Why young people aren’t attending mass
The hunger for in-person community among digital natives
The impact of mediated society on human connection

Interview with Mike St. Pierre [06:00 – 15:30]

Moving from “saying prayers” to “prayerfulness” [07:00]
Family prayer laboratory concept [11:00]
COVID as catalyst for spiritual leadership [10:30]
The challenge of spiritual parenting and overcoming resistance

Conversation Analysis [15:30 – 21:00]

Practical prayerfulness: 3 minutes of intentional listening [18:00]
Individual spiritual charisms and the “spiritual laboratory” approach [20:00]
Moving beyond one-size-fits-all religious education

Interview with Paul Morisi [21:00 – 32:00]

Adapting Catholic education for 2024 realities [22:00]
Finding “on-ramps” for individual students [25:00]
Measuring interior spiritual growth [27:00]
The shift from factory model to individualized formation

Interview with Friar Rick Riccioli [34:00 – 42:00]

Managing parish demographic shifts and legacy infrastructure [35:00]
The heartbreak of failed faith transmission [38:00]
Funerals as powerful evangelization moments [40:00]
Working with aging congregations while attracting youth

Closing Reflections [42:00 – 48:00]

The limitation of Eucharist-centered faith without life integration [42:00]
Mortality encounters and ritual hunger [44:00]
The importance of welcoming rather than judging returning Catholics

Key Takeaways

The “How-To” Gap: Churches excel at teaching doctrine but struggle with practical spiritual formation
Individual Approach: Moving from factory-model religion to personalized spiritual development
Family as Laboratory: Homes should be experimental spaces for different prayer styles and spiritual practices
Generational Bridge-Building: Older parishioners can be allies in youth ministry when they understand the mission
Crisis as Opportunity: Major life events (especially funerals) provide powerful evangelization moments
Integration Over Compartmentalization: Faith must pervade all of life, not just Sunday worship

Meet Our Guests
Mike St. Pierre

Superintendent of Schools, Diocese of Allentown, Pennsylv…

Formation – From Lived Experience to Practical Application
Episode Overview
In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich explore the critical topic of faith formation, examining the barriers that prevent Catholics from receiving ongoing spiritual development and highlighting practices that have proven successful. Through conversations with three experienced formation leaders, they uncover why trust and personal relationships are foundational to authentic spiritual growth.
Key Timestamps

[00:00:00] Opening quote on ministry and intimacy
[00:01:00] Introduction to faith formation experiences
[00:03:00] The backwards approach done right: Belong → Believe → Behave
[00:05:00] Results from discipleship study on formation needs
[00:06:00] Interview with Dr. Bill Keimig begins
[00:11:00] Discussion on trust in formation relationships
[00:19:00] Interview with Cindy Black on pastoral formation
[00:26:00] Consumer Christianity vs. authentic discipleship
[00:33:00] Interview with Friar Rick on Alpha program
[00:39:00] Practical ministry approaches and flexibility
[00:45:00] Long-term perspective on spiritual growth

Featured Guests
Dr. Bill Keimig
Deputy Director, Catechetical Institute at Franciscan University

Expert in RCIA/OCIA processes
Trainer for over 80 dioceses worldwide
Advocate for relationship-centered formation

Cindy Black
Pastoral Associate, St. Vincent de Paul Parish

Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend, Indiana
Experienced in Catholic radio ministry
Specialist in welcoming seekers to the Church

Friar Rick Riccioli
Parish Ministry Leader

Experienced with Alpha program implementation
Focus on hospitality and evangelization culture
Expert in community outreach through arts and media

Key Insights & Quotes
On Trust in Formation

“Ministry is defined by degree of intimacy and nothing else.” – Dr. Bill Keimig

On Consumer Christianity

“The end of evangelization is for you to go out and do it – to radically love people, not have the next thing that you get something out of.” – Cindy Black

On Personal Conversion

“Formation aims at the soul for yearning, while education aims at the mind for learning.” – Dr. Bill Keimig

On Authentic Discipleship

“The opposite of faith is not doubt, but the opposite of faith is certainty.” – Father John (quoting Anne Lamott)

Main Takeaways

Trust is Foundational: Authentic formation requires proving you’re trustworthy and demonstrating trust in God through daily interactions.

Relationship Before Program: Personal conversion happens through intimate relationships, not programmatic approaches that prioritize calendar schedules over individual needs.

Belong → Believe → Behave: The most effective formation welcomes people into community first, allowing belief and behavior to follow naturally.

Formation vs. Education: Formation targets the soul and develops yearning for God, while education primarily addresses intellectual understanding.

Avoiding Consumer Mentality: True discipleship involves giving what you’ve received rather than constantly seeking…

Prayer as Attention: Discovering the Mystical in Daily Life 
Quick Summary 
What if prayer isn’t just something you do at scheduled times, but the very attention you give to everything around you? In this transformative episode, we explore how “attention taken to its highest degree is the same thing as prayer” and discover why everyone—from busy parents to spiritual seekers—is called to be a mystic in their unique circumstances.
In this Episode, We Explore:

Why 43% of prayer app users aren’t even Catholic (and what this reveals about spiritual hunger)
The one simple test to know if your spiritual foundation is strong enough for growth
How to turn off notifications strategically to create sacred space in daily life
Why letting go of prayer aids might be essential for a deeper relationship with God

Redefining Prayer with Kathy Lorentz
Spiritual Director & Educator, Sunday to Sunday Ministry

“Let us remember that we are in the holy presence of God, and for me that is everything” (8:30) – How awareness of God’s constant presence transforms everything into prayer
“Attention is like a spotlight that can only focus on one thing at a time” (13:00) – The neuroscience behind why multitasking sabotages spiritual growth
Practical digital boundaries: Why Kathy keeps her phone on “do not disturb” and how to create notification-free zones (15:00)
Teaching teenagers mindfulness: The two-week digital journal exercise that helps students discover their own habits (14:30)

Digital Faith with Monica Martinez
Parish Lead at Hallow Prayer App

43% of Hallow users aren’t Catholic (22:30) – What this surprising statistic reveals about modern spiritual searching
“The Holy Spirit is not limited by an app” (23:45) – How technology creates safe spaces for spiritual curiosity
The trainer analogy: Why spiritual apps are like fitness trainers – helpful but not essential (24:00)
When prayer aids become idols: The hidden danger of relationship with your streak vs. relationship with God (26:30)

Universal Mysticism with Father David Roman
Pastor, St. Thomas Aquinas Parish, Fairfield, CT

Why everyone is called to be a mystic (32:30) – The same grace that worked in St. Teresa of Avila is available to every parent, professional, and person
“Formation vs. evangelizat…

How to Stop Compartmentalizing Your Faith Life and Start Living an Integrated Life

Listen to the trailer for the Religion to Reality podcast, where we help you live a more integrated life.