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QUICK SUMMARY:
What if the biggest obstacle to ministry isn’t a lack of resources, programs, or content — but a missing system for actually knowing the people in front of you?
In this bonus episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Josh Packard, sociologist of religion and co-founder of Future of Faith, for a wide-ranging conversation about one of the most urgent challenges facing the Church today: how to do genuine relational ministry at scale.
Drawing on years of research data and his experience at Spring Tide Research Institute and NCEA, Josh explains why trust in institutions is collapsing — and why the only antidote is time spent in a real, consistent relationship. He introduces practical tools anyone can download free at futureoffaith.org, shares why Gen Z isn’t “leaving the church” (their parents already did), and makes a compelling case for why AI will only make human connection more, not less, essential.
If you work in ministry, Catholic education, or any field that depends on reaching young people, this episode is required listening.
ABOUT JOSH PACKARD
Josh Packard is a sociologist of religion and a former professor at the University of Northern Colorado, where he taught applied sociology. He was the founding executive director of Spring Tide Research Institute, one of the most respected sources of data on youth and faith in the United States. He is now co-founder of Future of Faith, a nonprofit dedicated to helping ministry leaders build scalable relational tools grounded in a theology of sacred listening.
 
IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:
1. Trust has collapsed — and that changes everything2. Relational ministry needs a system, not just good intentions3. The Text to Connect tool4. Belonging before believing — and time before truth5. Gen Z didn’t leave — they were never there6. The Church’s strongest offering may be its most overlooked7. AI will deepen — not solve — the relational challenge 

0:00 — Introduction: Who is Josh Packard, and what is Future of Faith?
2:15 — The Core Problem: How do you do relational ministry at scale when people only trust what’s right in front of them?
5:30 — The Free Tools: What the Future of Faith listening tools are and how to download them at futureoffaith.org.
10:30 — Text to Connect: A step-by-step walkthrough of the emoji-based check-in tool — and how a color-coded Google Sheet can transform youth ministry.
14:00 — The Youth Minister’s Dilemma: A real-world portrait of a minister running on voice memos, Apple Notes, and reactive attention.
20:00 — Sacred Listening vs. Ministry with an Agenda: John challenges Josh: can you really listen without an end in mind?
23:30 — Time, Trust, Truth: The framework that flips the church’s traditional approach: belonging before believing.
.31:00 — Tarot, Crystals, and the Spiritual-but-not-Religious: Why young people are finding spiritual systems on TikTok that the Church hasn’t figured out how to offer.
39:00 — Young People Aren’t Leaving the Church: Josh pushes back: their parents left. The generation the Church is trying to reach was never there.
42:00 — The Church Is Answering Questions Nobody Is Asking: John on the disconnect between pulpit priorities and what young people actually need.
57:00 — AI and the Future of Trust: Why artificial intelligence will push the locus of trust lower — toward one-on-one relationships — and what that means for the Church.

 
MEMORABLE QUOTES

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QUICK SUMMARY
What happens when the Church you love has also hurt you? For many Catholics, there’s no safe space to hold both truths at once, until now. In this powerful bonus episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich talk with Paul Fahey, licensed counselor, catechist, and host of the Third Space Podcast, to unpack what spiritual abuse really looks like, why so many Catholics unknowingly surrender their freedom, and how genuine listening may be the most prophetic act the Church can offer right now. 
IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

Spiritual abuse — coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context — is far more widespread than most Catholics realize.
Claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, or presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, are clear markers of spiritual coercion.
The desire to surrender freedom to rules or authority is deeply human and easily exploited. Mature faith requires owning one’s conscience.
Using “the devil” as a scapegoat can itself become a mechanism of harm. True discernment leads to solidarity, not deflection.
Success in ministry is not measured by numbers, but by whether someone experiences encounter, gains language for their experience, and knows they are not alone.
The most prophetic gift Christians can offer today may simply be listening — without an agenda.

[00:00] — Introducing Paul Fahey Paul shares his background: eight years as a parish Director of Religious Education, husband and father of five, and now a licensed counselor in Michigan.
[01:30] — From Pope Francis Generation to The Third Space Paul co-founded the Pope Francis Generation Podcast with Dominic Dusa of Smart Catholics after unexpectedly leaving his parish job. As his work with abuse survivors deepened, he began noticing gaps between Pope Francis’ teaching on human dignity and his governing decisions — prompting a full rebrand toward a podcast centered on Christ in the vulnerable and marginalized.
[06:00] — What Is “The Third Space”? Inspired by a conversation with mentor Monica Pope, Paul identified a void: survivors of Church harm are met either with Catholic defensiveness or with “why do you even stay?” The Third Space holds both — a place for people who want congruence between their experience of harm and their experience of good in the Church.
[07:45] — Who Is This Podcast For? Survivors of clerical sexual abuse, yes — but also the much broader category of spiritual abuse. Paul cites research from Dr. Lisa Oakley (UK) suggesting roughly 75% of Christians have experienced coercion or manipulation in their church communities. His audience is anyone harmed by the Church, and anyone with ears to hear the Gospel as told by those who’ve been hurt.
[10:00] — Why Podcasting? More than convenience — podcasting allows for live dialogue and spontaneous vulnerability that writing simply can’t capture. Paul describes it as closer to leading RCIA or a small group than publishing an article.
[13:00] — Is the Church Doing Podcasting Well? A candid take on the lay-driven nature of Catholic media — and the troubling amount of spiritually harmful content circulating under the Catholic label. Bad Catholic content isn’t poorly produced; it’s content that misrepresents God, misrepresents the Church’s teaching, and coerces consciences.
[16:30] — Defining Spiritual Abuse Paul walks through the core definition: a pattern of coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context, using spiritual authority to control others. Key markers include claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, or using religious fear to manipulate beha…

QUICK SUMMARY
What does it really mean to live the Gospel, not just inside church walls, but on the street corner, in the storefront, and in the lives of people the world has written off? In this powerful bonus episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich are joined by Father James O’Shea, a Passionist priest and co-founder of Reconnect, a community organization in Brooklyn that has spent over a decade transforming lives through employment, mentorship, and belonging. Father Jim shares why crossing the street, literally and figuratively, is the first and most essential act of discipleship. This conversation will challenge you, inspire you, and might just upend your narrative.
 
IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

“If you don’t want to leave the block, then we transform the block.” — Father Jim on the founding philosophy of Reconnect (00:03:30)

How a simple basketball program at a public school became a window into the lives — and recurring tragedies — of young men in Bed-Stuy (00:08:00)
Why moralizing with people goes nowhere, and what the church should do instead (00:09:30)
The difference between “behave, believe, then belong” vs. leading with belonging — and why it matters (00:10:30)
What the Passionists are, and how the charism of the Cross connects contemplation to solidarity with the suffering (00:14:30)
Why Father Jim fell in love with Bedford-Stuyvesant the first Sunday he went there (00:18:00)
The predictable, heartbreaking pattern he watched play out in young men’s lives — and how Reconnect interrupts it (00:19:30)
“The church is the only institution I see that really has the capacity to continually witness: you are worth us doing this because we know who you are.” (00:43:00)
Why human dignity as a concept may owe more to Christianity than most people realize — and what that means in the age of AI (00:48:30)
The irreplaceable role of women religious in humanizing American culture (00:52:00)
How the church should navigate controversial moral teachings while still leading with love (01:02:00)
“I’m not going to pontificate about it until I hear people’s stories.” — Father Jim on listening before judging (01:14:30)
Whether radical listening might be the defining prophetic witness the church is called to offer right now (01:08:30)
Why listening is “a very dangerous enterprise” — and why that’s exactly the point (01:13:00)

About Father Jim O’Shea
Father Jim O’Shea, CP, is a member of the Passionist Congregation and currently serves as Provincial of the Passionists’ Holy Cross Province, based in Queens, New York. Ordained in 1989, Father Jim spent approximately 25 years in Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, where he earned a Master’s in Social Work from Fordham University and became deeply involved in community organizing, affordable housing advocacy, and youth ministry. In 2010, he co-founded Reconnect, a social enterprise and mentorship program for young men in distressed communities. Reconnect is now based at Thomas Berry Place in Queens.
 
MEMORABLE QUOTES 
“If you don’t want to leave the block, then we transform the block.” — Father Jim O’Shea
“Moralizing with people is easy. But the legitimate question back to me is: what’s your value add in my life?” — Father Jim O’Shea
“The church is the only institution I see that really has the capacity to continually witness: you are worth us doing this because we know who you are.” — Father Jim O’Shea
“It’s very hard to hate someone that you’ve really dee…

QUICK SUMMARY
In this bonus episode of Religion to Reality, Renée Roden, a freelance religion journalist and Catholic Worker community member, has an in-depth conversation about living faith in action. Renee shares her journey from theater student at Notre Dame to running a Catholic Worker house in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, while offering a thoughtful exploration of how Catholics can bridge the gap between sacramental life and works of mercy. This conversation challenges listeners to reconsider what it means to truly live out their faith beyond Sunday Mass.

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE
[00:03:00] The Catholic Worker Movement Explained Renee provides an accessible introduction to the Catholic Worker movement, founded in the 1930s by Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin. She explains how Dorothy Day prayed for a way to unite her writing skills, love for the poor, and newfound Catholic faith—and the next day met Peter Maurin, who introduced her to Catholic social teaching. Within months, they launched The Catholic Worker newspaper (cleverly named to counter the communist Daily Worker), and the movement exploded from 2,500 copies to six-figure readership within three years. The movement centers on Houses of Hospitality, voluntary poverty, and practicing the corporal works of mercy.
[00:11:00] Navigating Political Division The conversation tackles how Catholics can remain faithful during politically charged times without getting distracted by national politics at the expense of local, concrete action. Renee explains Dorothy Day’s anarchism: she marched for women’s suffrage and was imprisoned for it, yet never cast a vote herself. Day believed the state always serves its own interests and those of corporations or elites. Rather than focusing on distant political figures we don’t even know personally, the Catholic Worker approach asks: “How do I care for my neighbor right now?” This localized focus prevents us from treating national political disagreements as distractions from the immediate, joyful work we can do in our own communities.
[00:15:00] Personalism as a Third Way Drawing on philosopher Emmanuel Mounier’s concept of personalism, Renee articulates how the Catholic Worker offers a political vision centered on human dignity and freedom—distinct from both individualistic capitalism and collectivist ideologies. She explains that personalism asks fundamental questions: “What causes a human person to flourish? Are our structures supporting a person’s ability to seek the good?” This approach shifts the focus from abstract national policy debates to concrete encounters with neighbors at the local level, bringing politics back to its first principles.
[00:20:00] Voluntary Poverty and True Freedom Renee wrestles honestly with the challenging concept of voluntary poverty, sharing how her partner James once told her “voluntary poverty promotes community and is freeing”—which initially baffled her. She explains how it’s not about deprivation but about answering the question: “Who do I depend on?” Rather than depending on personal wealth and self-sufficiency, voluntary poverty means bringing your needs to God and depending on community. It creates genuine relationships based on material need, not just emotional connection, making community more meaningful and human.
[00:27:00] The Eucharist and Works of Mercy Connection Father John and Renee explore the deep connection between sacramental life and active service, addressing why the discipleship study shows Catholics excelling at liturgical participation but struggling with consistent works of mercy. Renee discusses the liturgical movement’s influence on Dorothy Day, particularly the understanding that the Eucharist contains a call to “go be Eucharist in the world.” As Pope Francis teaches in <...

QUICK SUMMARY
What does it truly mean to live out your Catholic faith in everyday life? In this compelling conversation, Peter Andrastek, Senior Consultant at The Evangelical Catholic, challenges the common misconception that holiness means becoming more like a priest, nun, or monk. Instead, he reveals how ordinary Catholics are called to extraordinary holiness right where they are—in their workplaces, families, and communities.
Discover why most parishes aren’t equipped to form laypeople for their unique vocation, how the distinction between “ministry” and “apostolate” changes everything, and what practical steps you can take today to become salt, light, and leaven in your corner of the world. This bonus episode offers a refreshing vision of Catholic life that goes far beyond Sunday Mass attendance.

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:
Understanding Ministry vs. Apostolate (02:40)

Why most Catholics misunderstand their true vocation
How ministry flows from holy orders to build up the church
Why apostolate is the specific calling of the laity to sanctify the world
The difference between “ad intra” (within the church) and “ad extra” (to the world)

What Sanctifying the World Actually Looks Like (09:00)

A CEO who makes breakfast for colleagues every Friday morning
Why holiness is “extraordinary love lived in the ordinary”
How personal transformation radiates mysteriously to others
The “apologetics of meaning” that makes people ask, “What’s different about your life?”

The Skills vs. Holiness Debate (16:00)

Why evangelization training without personal holiness is manipulation
The role of human formation: “Don’t be weird”
How character and personality can facilitate or impede the gospel
Why we can’t “train people into zeal”

The Seminary Challenge (20:00)

Young seminarians who want to be “weird” and countercultural
The attraction to smells, bells, and traditional liturgy
Why liturgical emphasis alone won’t reach most people
Navigating between authenticity and accessibility

Pastoral Principles That Work (24:00)

“That which is received is received according to the disposition of the receiver”
Working within your circle of influence vs. circle of concern
Starting with a few well-disposed people rather than massive programs
The mustard seed principle of parish renewal

A Practical Starting Point (28:30)

Begin with 3-5 people you’d enjoy growing with
Focus on three topics: Life, Growth, and Mission
Keep 3-5 names on a prayer list and check in regularly
Why most Catholics think holiness means spending more time at parish

The Real Models of Holiness (33:00)

Fr. John’s confession: “My heroes are people raising eight kids, not priests and monks”
Why religious life is “institutionalized” and doesn’t require the same daily sacrifice
The sublimity of the lay vocation that’s meant to “pass unnoticed”
Why 5,000 people attend certain funerals

The Airline Pilot’s Apostolate (43:00)

A major airline pilot who made his cockpit his mission field
Intentional conversations leading to broken marriages being healed
“Define, Plan, Act” exercise for getting specific about your apostolate
Why apostolate is “almost more about you than other people”

Something’s Got to Give (37:00)

Every pope since Vatican II has called for lay renewal
Why we’re living in an exciting, adventurous time
The proble…

Quick Summary
What if the struggle in your spiritual life isn’t a sign of failure, but proof that your relationship with God matters deeply? In this intimate conversation, spiritual director Mary Glowaski reveals how spiritual direction creates sacred space for encountering God’s love in unexpected ways, especially in our deepest struggles and shame.
Mary shares her unexpected call to spiritual direction, the profound difference between counseling and spiritual companionship, and why being harsh with ourselves blocks us from experiencing God’s unconditional love. If you’ve ever wondered what spiritual direction actually is, how to find a director, or whether it’s right for you, this episode offers compassionate wisdom from someone who has walked with countless souls through their most sacred stories.
Discover why spiritual direction isn’t about getting answers; it’s about learning to see yourself and others through God’s eyes of infinite compassion.
In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

Spiritual direction focuses on your relationship with God, not on finding immediate answers or solutions
The gentleness in spiritual direction mirrors God’s gentle work in our lives—transformation doesn’t need to be forced
Many people struggle not with feeling unloved, but with seeing themselves as lovable
Spiritual directors are formed professionals who create covenantal (not just confidential) sacred space
The ego is sneaky—spiritual direction helps us get out of our own way so God can work
Self-compassion unlocks our ability to show genuine compassion to others
The struggles we face are often universal human experiences, not signs of unique brokenness
Anthropomorphizing God (making God in our image) prevents us from becoming reflections of God’s image

[00:00] Introduction and welcome
[00:36] Mary’s background: From social work to spiritual direction

Family life and career journey
The unexpected call while driving past University of St. Francis

[02:00] What is spiritual direction?

Difference from counseling and therapy
Responding to divine invitation
Seeing all of life as sacred

[05:00] The focus on relationship with God, not human guidance

Trusting God’s work in the directee’s life
Being a conduit rather than an answer-giver

[06:00] Common misconceptions about spiritual direction

Ancient practice that was lost and rediscovered
Not just for clergy—relatively new widespread practice (last 60 years)

[08:00] Suspending what we think we know

Trusting the directee’s experience of God
The privilege of witnessing sacred stories

[09:00] The gentle stance of spiritual direction

Creating peaceful, unhurried space
Cultural addiction to productivity vs. spiritual receptivity

[10:43] The struggle with self-love and feeling lovable

How harshness toward ourselves blocks God’s love
Knowing whose we are, not just who we are

[12:00] Spiritual direction vs. counseling vs. mentoring

How to discern what someone needs
Staying faithful to the original relationship

[14:00] How spiritual direction changes the director

Being humbled by directees’ courage
Witnessing God’s work in immeasurable ways
Holding stories in a covenantal way

[16:00] The unique interior access of spiritual direction

Seeing growth that spouses may not even see
The hidden nature…