Podcast: Religion to Reality

QUICK SUMMARY:
What if the biggest obstacle to ministry isn’t a lack of resources, programs, or content — but a missing system for actually knowing the people in front of you?
In this bonus episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Josh Packard, sociologist of religion and co-founder of Future of Faith, for a wide-ranging conversation about one of the most urgent challenges facing the Church today: how to do genuine relational ministry at scale.
Drawing on years of research data and his experience at Spring Tide Research Institute and NCEA, Josh explains why trust in institutions is collapsing — and why the only antidote is time spent in a real, consistent relationship. He introduces practical tools anyone can download free at futureoffaith.org, shares why Gen Z isn’t “leaving the church” (their parents already did), and makes a compelling case for why AI will only make human connection more, not less, essential.
If you work in ministry, Catholic education, or any field that depends on reaching young people, this episode is required listening.
ABOUT JOSH PACKARD
Josh Packard is a sociologist of religion and a former professor at the University of Northern Colorado, where he taught applied sociology. He was the founding executive director of Spring Tide Research Institute, one of the most respected sources of data on youth and faith in the United States. He is now co-founder of Future of Faith, a nonprofit dedicated to helping ministry leaders build scalable relational tools grounded in a theology of sacred listening.
 
IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:
1. Trust has collapsed — and that changes everything2. Relational ministry needs a system, not just good intentions3. The Text to Connect tool4. Belonging before believing — and time before truth5. Gen Z didn’t leave — they were never there6. The Church’s strongest offering may be its most overlooked7. AI will deepen — not solve — the relational challenge 

0:00 — Introduction: Who is Josh Packard, and what is Future of Faith?
2:15 — The Core Problem: How do you do relational ministry at scale when people only trust what’s right in front of them?
5:30 — The Free Tools: What the Future of Faith listening tools are and how to download them at futureoffaith.org.
10:30 — Text to Connect: A step-by-step walkthrough of the emoji-based check-in tool — and how a color-coded Google Sheet can transform youth ministry.
14:00 — The Youth Minister’s Dilemma: A real-world portrait of a minister running on voice memos, Apple Notes, and reactive attention.
20:00 — Sacred Listening vs. Ministry with an Agenda: John challenges Josh: can you really listen without an end in mind?
23:30 — Time, Trust, Truth: The framework that flips the church’s traditional approach: belonging before believing.
.31:00 — Tarot, Crystals, and the Spiritual-but-not-Religious: Why young people are finding spiritual systems on TikTok that the Church hasn’t figured out how to offer.
39:00 — Young People Aren’t Leaving the Church: Josh pushes back: their parents left. The generation the Church is trying to reach was never there.
42:00 — The Church Is Answering Questions Nobody Is Asking: John on the disconnect between pulpit priorities and what young people actually need.
57:00 — AI and the Future of Trust: Why artificial intelligence will push the locus of trust lower — toward one-on-one relationships — and what that means for the Church.

 
MEMORABLE QUOTES

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Quick Summary 
Are you attending Mass regularly but struggling to live out your faith in everyday life? You’re not alone. In this episode of Religion to Reality, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore why so many Catholics feel confident in their sacramental life but struggle with the expressive fruits of discipleship, particularly the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.
Drawing from their groundbreaking discipleship study, they sit down with three inspiring guests who are living these works of mercy in radically different ways: Renee Roden from the Catholic Worker Movement, Fr. Jim O’Shea of Reconnect Brooklyn, and Christina Semmens of Say Yes to Holiness. Together, they unpack what it truly means to become Eucharist in the world and how small acts of mercy in our daily lives can transform both ourselves and our communities.
In this Episode, We Explore:
Introduction: The Disconnect Between Mass and Mercy (00:00)

Overview of expressive fruits from the discipleship study
Why Catholics rate themselves low on works of mercy despite strong sacramental participation

Interview with Renee Roden – Catholic Worker Movement (3:00)

The relationship between the Eucharist and works of mercy
How the liturgical movement influenced Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin
Why there should be no division between “helpers” and “the helped”

Mass as Commissioning (9:22)

Understanding “Go forth, the Mass is ended” as a call to action
Integrating material and spiritual needs in service
The danger of separating soup kitchens from spiritual community

Practical First Steps for Living the Works of Mercy (13:00)

Why accompanying someone already doing this work matters
Overcoming the awkwardness of personal encounter
Building spiritual muscles through community

Interview with Father Jim O’Shea – Reconnect Brooklyn (15:00)

Working with at-risk youth in Bedford-Stuyvesant
How radical solidarity costs us our comfortable narratives
The fear that keeps us from authentic engagement

The Power of Listening (18:30)

Why Fr. Jim says we’ve “written off” certain groups of people
Starting with those in proximity before reaching the margins
Working the muscle of deep listening in your own family

Interview with Christina Semmens – Say Yes to Holiness (25:00)

Episode 5: The Sacred Art of Listening – Understanding Spiritual Direction
Quick Summary
What does it mean to truly hear someone versus simply listening? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the transformative practice of spiritual direction—examining how this ancient tradition helps us tune into God’s presence in our daily lives. Through intimate conversations with three practitioners, discover why seeing yourself as lovable might be the most important spiritual work you’ll ever do, and learn how one diocese is making spiritual direction accessible to thousands. Whether you’re seeking your first spiritual director or wondering if this practice is right for you, this episode offers practical wisdom and surprising data about one of Catholicism’s most powerful yet underutilized resources.
In This Episode, We Explore:
Opening Reflection: Hearing vs. Listening (00:00)

Marshall McLuhan’s insight on electronic-age communication and the Gospel
The difference between restrictive listening and transformative hearing
Why Christ distinguished between scribes who listened and disciples who heard
Key Quote: “To listen is to blinker yourself… but to hear is to put yourself on the same wavelength as the speaker.” (02:00)

Interview with Mary Glowaski – Creating Gentle Spaces (04:00)
Mary Glowaski is a spiritual director based in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and serves as Dave’s spiritual director

Why gentleness matters more than technique in spiritual direction
The crucial distinction between being loved and seeing yourself as lovable (06:00)
Understanding whose we are, not just who we are (07:00)
How spiritual directors discern between spiritual direction, pastoral counseling, and mentoring (08:00)
The sacred trust of covenant confidentiality vs. simple confidentiality (10:00)
Key Quote: “Too often I find people, Dave, that it is not that they don’t feel loved, they don’t see themselves as lovable.” (06:45)

Confession and Direction: A Priestly Perspective (11:00)
Father John Gribowich reflects on the intersection of sacramental confession and spiritual direction

Why confession should be viewed as gratitude rather than legalism (13:00)
The challenge of complementing confession with spiritual direction
Rethinking “spiritual direction” as “spiritual guidance”
Why priests aren’t always the right choice for spiritual direction (22:00)

Interview with Deacon Tom Whalen – Building Diocesan Infrastructure (16:00)
Deacon Tom Whalen coordinates spiritual direction for the Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina

How one diaconate formation class revealed a massive gap in spiritual direction access (17:00)
Creating a diocesan-wide spiritual direction program from scratch
Why Spring Hill College’s graduate program became the foundation
The innovative model: spiritual directors work under pastors, not the chancery (19:00)
Addressing the supply and demand crisis in spiritual direction

Interview with Hans Plate – What the Data Reveals (23:00)
Hans Plate is founder and president of Vinea Research and partner on the Religion to Reality discipleship study

The surprising 100% statistic about spiritual direction availability (23:00)
Why many Catholics don’t understand what spiritual direction actually is
Hans’s personal journey: discovering spiritual direction through confession (25:00)
The challenge of finding the right match when directors relocate (26:00)
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