Episode 5: The Sacred Art of Listening – Understanding Spiritual Direction

Quick Summary

What does it mean to truly hear someone versus simply listening? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the transformative practice of spiritual direction—examining how this ancient tradition helps us tune into God’s presence in our daily lives. Through intimate conversations with three practitioners, discover why seeing yourself as lovable might be the most important spiritual work you’ll ever do, and learn how one diocese is making spiritual direction accessible to thousands. Whether you’re seeking your first spiritual director or wondering if this practice is right for you, this episode offers practical wisdom and surprising data about one of Catholicism’s most powerful yet underutilized resources.

In This Episode, We Explore:

Opening Reflection: Hearing vs. Listening (00:00)

• Marshall McLuhan’s insight on electronic-age communication and the Gospel
• The difference between restrictive listening and transformative hearing
• Why Christ distinguished between scribes who listened and disciples who heard
• Key Quote: “To listen is to blinker yourself… but to hear is to put yourself on the same wavelength as the speaker.” (02:00)

Interview with Mary Glowaski – Creating Gentle Spaces (04:00)

Mary Glowaski is a spiritual director based in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and serves as Dave’s spiritual director

• Why gentleness matters more than technique in spiritual direction
• The crucial distinction between being loved and seeing yourself as lovable (06:00)
• Understanding whose we are, not just who we are (07:00)
• How spiritual directors discern between spiritual direction, pastoral counseling, and mentoring (08:00)
• The sacred trust of covenant confidentiality vs. simple confidentiality (10:00)
• Key Quote: “Too often I find people, Dave, that it is not that they don’t feel loved, they don’t see themselves as lovable.” (06:45)

Confession and Direction: A Priestly Perspective (11:00)

Father John Gribowich reflects on the intersection of sacramental confession and spiritual direction

• Why confession should be viewed as gratitude rather than legalism (13:00)
• The challenge of complementing confession with spiritual direction
• Rethinking “spiritual direction” as “spiritual guidance”
• Why priests aren’t always the right choice for spiritual direction (22:00)

Interview with Deacon Tom Whalen – Building Diocesan Infrastructure (16:00)

Deacon Tom Whalen coordinates spiritual direction for the Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina

• How one diaconate formation class revealed a massive gap in spiritual direction access (17:00)
• Creating a diocesan-wide spiritual direction program from scratch
• Why Spring Hill College’s graduate program became the foundation
• The innovative model: spiritual directors work under pastors, not the chancery (19:00)
• Addressing the supply and demand crisis in spiritual direction

Interview with Hans Plate – What the Data Reveals (23:00)

Hans Plate is founder and president of Vinea Research and partner on the Religion to Reality discipleship study

• The surprising 100% statistic about spiritual direction availability (23:00)
• Why many Catholics don’t understand what spiritual direction actually is
• Hans’s personal journey: discovering spiritual direction through confession (25:00)
• The challenge of finding the right match when directors relocate (26:00)
• Comparing spiritual direction to coaching, mentoring, and 12-step sponsors (28:00)

Practical Takeaways (Throughout)

• Spiritual directors don’t need to be priests—lay directors can be equally valid
• The search for a director is like dating: timing and fit both matter
• Zoom-based spiritual direction can be just as effective as in-person
• Most people discover spiritual direction through personal relationships or confession
• Good spiritual direction focuses on where God is already working in your life

Key Takeaways

The Interior Journey Moving the 18 inches from head to heart, integrating theological knowledge with lived experience, and recognizing that spiritual direction is about what’s being done in us rather than what we accomplish.

Access and Availability The gap between those who would benefit from spiritual direction and those who can access it, plus innovative diocesan solutions to increase accessibility.

The Role of Self-Love Understanding ourselves as lovable as the foundation for experiencing God’s love—a theme that emerged repeatedly across conversations.

Finding the Right Director Practical wisdom on navigating the search process, recognizing it takes time, trust, and often multiple attempts.

Meet Our Guests

Mary Glowaski

• Spiritual director based in Fort Wayne, Indiana
• Brings gentleness and depth to her practice
• Emphasizes creating covenantal relationships with directees that go beyond simple confidentiality to holding them in love

Deacon Tom Whalen

• Serves in the Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina
• Coordinates the diocesan spiritual direction program
• After completing his own spiritual direction training at Spring Hill College, he worked with diocesan leadership to expand access to spiritual direction across the entire state

Hans Plate

• Founder and president of Vinea Research, specializing in Catholic discipleship data and analysis
• Partnered with Religion to Reality on our comprehensive discipleship study and brings both research expertise and personal spiritual direction experience to the conversation

Memorable Quotes

On Self-Love & Being Lovable:

“Too often I find people, Dave, that it is not that they don’t feel loved, they don’t see themselves as lovable.”
— Mary Glowaski (06:45)

On What Spiritual Direction Really Is:

“Spiritual direction is about looking at what’s being done in us.”
— Mary Glowaski (06:00)

“I’m not really interested in directing them anywhere. In fact, I think spiritual direction is just a bad term.”
— Father John Gribowich (15:00)

On The Director’s Posture:

“I’m always going to be in awe of what God is doing, and so therefore, how do I show up to be able to reverence that presence in the person.”
— Father John Gribowich (15:00)

On Covenant Relationships:

“This is beyond just, I’m going to keep your trust. It’s going to, I’m going to keep you in love.”
— Mary Glowaski (11:00)

On God’s Relentless Love:

“God will reveal his love to us by any means necessary.”
— Father John Gribowich (16:00)

On Hearing vs. Listening:

“To listen is to blinker yourself… but to hear is to put yourself on the same wavelength as the speaker.”
— Marshall McLuhan, The Medium and the Light (02:00)

On The Search Challenge:

“It’s not only finding a spiritual director, but it’s finding one that you think you can open up to and have this relationship… finding that right match.”
— Hans Plate (26:00)

On Accessibility:

“It was quite obvious to me… there is an incredible need.”
— Deacon Tom Whalen on discovering the spiritual direction gap (18:00)

Resources Mentioned

Spiritual Direction Resources:

• Diocese of Charleston Spiritual Directors Directory
• Vinea Research – Catholic Discipleship Dataspirit
• Spiritual Direction and Companionship

Books Referenced:

• The Medium and the Light by Marshall McLuhan

Programs Mentioned:

• Spring Hill College Graduate Spiritual Direction Program (Mobile, Alabama)
• Ignatius House (Atlanta, Georgia)

Next Episode Preview:

Join us next week as we explore evangelization—examining personal barriers, professional experiences, and how to share faith authentically in the modern world.

About Religion to Reality

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, created by Dave Plisky and produced by Conor Donnelly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and help others discover the show by leaving ratings and reviews.

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