Bonus: Spiritual Abuse with Paul Fahey

QUICK SUMMARY

What happens when the Church you love has also hurt you? For many Catholics, there’s no safe space to hold both truths at once, until now. In this powerful bonus episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich talk with Paul Fahey, licensed counselor, catechist, and host of the Third Space Podcast, to unpack what spiritual abuse really looks like, why so many Catholics unknowingly surrender their freedom, and how genuine listening may be the most prophetic act the Church can offer right now. 

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• Spiritual abuse — coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context — is far more widespread than most Catholics realize.
• Claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, or presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, are clear markers of spiritual coercion.
• The desire to surrender freedom to rules or authority is deeply human and easily exploited. Mature faith requires owning one’s conscience.
• Using “the devil” as a scapegoat can itself become a mechanism of harm. True discernment leads to solidarity, not deflection.
• Success in ministry is not measured by numbers, but by whether someone experiences encounter, gains language for their experience, and knows they are not alone.
• The most prophetic gift Christians can offer today may simply be listening — without an agenda.

[00:00] — Introducing Paul Fahey Paul shares his background: eight years as a parish Director of Religious Education, husband and father of five, and now a licensed counselor in Michigan.

[01:30] — From Pope Francis Generation to The Third Space Paul co-founded the Pope Francis Generation Podcast with Dominic Dusa of Smart Catholics after unexpectedly leaving his parish job. As his work with abuse survivors deepened, he began noticing gaps between Pope Francis’ teaching on human dignity and his governing decisions — prompting a full rebrand toward a podcast centered on Christ in the vulnerable and marginalized.

[06:00] — What Is “The Third Space”? Inspired by a conversation with mentor Monica Pope, Paul identified a void: survivors of Church harm are met either with Catholic defensiveness or with “why do you even stay?” The Third Space holds both — a place for people who want congruence between their experience of harm and their experience of good in the Church.

[07:45] — Who Is This Podcast For? Survivors of clerical sexual abuse, yes — but also the much broader category of spiritual abuse. Paul cites research from Dr. Lisa Oakley (UK) suggesting roughly 75% of Christians have experienced coercion or manipulation in their church communities. His audience is anyone harmed by the Church, and anyone with ears to hear the Gospel as told by those who’ve been hurt.

[10:00] — Why Podcasting? More than convenience — podcasting allows for live dialogue and spontaneous vulnerability that writing simply can’t capture. Paul describes it as closer to leading RCIA or a small group than publishing an article.

[13:00] — Is the Church Doing Podcasting Well? A candid take on the lay-driven nature of Catholic media — and the troubling amount of spiritually harmful content circulating under the Catholic label. Bad Catholic content isn’t poorly produced; it’s content that misrepresents God, misrepresents the Church’s teaching, and coerces consciences.

[16:30] — Defining Spiritual Abuse Paul walks through the core definition: a pattern of coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context, using spiritual authority to control others. Key markers include claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, or using religious fear to manipulate behavior.

“If you have a podcast, you’re putting yourself in a position of authority — and if you’re using that to get people to change their behavior rather than to present the Gospel and give them space to wrestle with it, you’ve moved into spiritual coercion.”

[22:00] — The Appeal of Surrender Many Catholics — perhaps all of us to some degree — are tempted to hand their freedom over to rules or authority figures. Paul reflects honestly on seeing this tendency in himself, and how mature conscience formation requires taking personal responsibility.

[25:00] — Father John’s “Fenced Playground” Story Children in an unfenced playground huddle in fear; children in a fenced playground spread out freely. The insight: parameters don’t restrict freedom — they create it. Religious structures, when used rightly, do the same.

[28:00] — Spiritual Warfare, Fear, and the Devil as Scapegoat Can spiritual warfare language become a bypass — a way to avoid personal responsibility? Paul draws on René Girard’s scapegoat mechanism: using “the devil” to avoid accountability is the devil’s playbook. The demonic is found in the scapegoat mechanism itself.

“If talking of the devil leads to scapegoating, it’s harmful. If it leads us to actually work against abusive systems, that’s a proper way to understand it.”

[39:30] — Scripture, Tradition, and Experience in Tension Paul resists pitting lived experience against Scripture and Tradition — instead, he draws on Pope Francis’ early Jesuit writing: realities are more important than ideas. Living in that tension, with expectation that the Holy Spirit will do something creative, is the work of synodality.

[43:00] — How Paul Measures Success Not downloads. Paul measures success by individual conversations — people who say, “You gave me the language to understand what happened to me,” or “I finally don’t feel alone.”

[47:00] — “The Glory of God Is Man Fully Alive” Theosis — our divinization, our transformation into Christ — means being fully alive is giving God glory. This is not an intellectual endeavor. It is total personal transformation.

[48:30] — What Surrender Looks Like in Paul’s Life Showing up in prayer as he actually is, not performing. Trusting his desires as the Lord moves through them — drawing on St. Ignatius’ Discernment of Spirits: the good spirit moves those close to God through drawing and inspiration, not fear.

[51:00] — Is Spiritual Abuse Perennial or New? Perennial — but modern communications have dramatically amplified our capacity for harm. The response from Catholic Social Teaching is the virtue of solidarity: a personal commitment to human dignity and a social responsibility to dismantle structures of sin.

[55:30] — The Prophetic Act of Listening Father John argues the most prophetic witness the Church can offer right now is listening without agenda. Paul grounds this in Pope Francis’ concept of accompaniment and Carl Rogers’ person-centered counseling — empathy, genuineness, and unconditional positive regard create the very conditions where people naturally heal and grow.

ABOUT PAUL FAHEY

Paul Fahey is a limited licensed counselor in the state of Michigan and the host of the Third Space Podcast. A former Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish, Paul transitioned into counseling with a specialized focus on spiritual abuse, both individual experiences of it and the systemic structures that enable it. He creates workshops for church leaders on recognizing spiritually abusive systems and works individually with survivors of Church harm.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Third Space Podcast — Paul Fahey’s podcast for those who’ve experienced harm in the Church
• Smart Catholics — Dominic Dusa’s platform; co-host of the original Pope Francis Generation Podcast
• Where Peter Is — A Catholic blog where Paul has contributed writing
• Dr. Lisa Oakley — UK researcher on spiritual abuse in Christian communities
• René Girard — French philosopher; scapegoat mechanism and mimetic theory
• St. Ignatius of Loyola — Discernment of Spirits, the Spiritual Exercises
• Carl Rogers — Person-centered counseling; empathy, genuineness, unconditional positive regard
• Pope Francis — Evangelii Gaudium, synodality, accompaniment, “realities are more important than ideas”
• Catholic Social Teaching — Virtue of solidarity, structures of sin, preferential option for the poor

MEMORABLE QUOTES

“If you have a podcast, you’re putting yourself in a position of authority — and if you’re using that to get people to change their behavior rather than to present the Gospel and give them space to wrestle with it, you’ve moved into spiritual coercion.” — Paul Fahey [16:30]

“Belonging comes first — before right belief and right behavior. If I make right belief the litmus test for belonging, I’ve undermined the Gospel.” — Paul Fahey [55:30]

“If talking of the devil leads to scapegoating, it’s harmful. If it leads us to actually work against abusive systems, that’s a proper way to understand it.” — Paul Fahey [28:00]

“The glory of God is man fully alive — and me being fully alive is me being transformed into Christ. This is not an intellectual endeavor. This is about total personal transformation.” — Paul Fahey [47:00]

“You’ve given me the language to understand my own experiences. And now I don’t feel alone in them.” — A listener, as recalled by Paul Fahey [43:00]

“I still catch myself in prayer — performing. Not being able to show up as I am and let the Lord meet me there.” — Paul Fahey [48:30]

“Anytime you hear anyone say ‘this behavior is a mortal sin’ — that is spiritually abusive. I can’t possibly know the conscience of another person.” — Paul Fahey [19:30]

“Perhaps the most prophetic witness the Church can give right now is the genuine art of listening — not to convince, not to point out flaws, but to listen without agenda.” — Father John [55:30]

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