Listening, Trust, and the Future of Faith with Josh Packard

QUICK SUMMARY:

What if the biggest obstacle to ministry isn’t a lack of resources, programs, or content — but a missing system for actually knowing the people in front of you?

In this bonus episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Josh Packard, sociologist of religion and co-founder of Future of Faith, for a wide-ranging conversation about one of the most urgent challenges facing the Church today: how to do genuine relational ministry at scale.

Drawing on years of research data and his experience at Spring Tide Research Institute and NCEA, Josh explains why trust in institutions is collapsing — and why the only antidote is time spent in a real, consistent relationship. He introduces practical tools anyone can download free at futureoffaith.org, shares why Gen Z isn’t “leaving the church” (their parents already did), and makes a compelling case for why AI will only make human connection more, not less, essential.

If you work in ministry, Catholic education, or any field that depends on reaching young people, this episode is required listening.

ABOUT JOSH PACKARD

Josh Packard is a sociologist of religion and a former professor at the University of Northern Colorado, where he taught applied sociology. He was the founding executive director of Spring Tide Research Institute, one of the most respected sources of data on youth and faith in the United States. He is now co-founder of Future of Faith, a nonprofit dedicated to helping ministry leaders build scalable relational tools grounded in a theology of sacred listening.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

1. Trust has collapsed — and that changes everything
2. Relational ministry needs a system, not just good intentions
3. The Text to Connect tool
4. Belonging before believing — and time before truth
5. Gen Z didn’t leave — they were never there
6. The Church’s strongest offering may be its most overlooked
7. AI will deepen — not solve — the relational challenge

• 0:00 — Introduction: Who is Josh Packard, and what is Future of Faith?
• 2:15 — The Core Problem: How do you do relational ministry at scale when people only trust what’s right in front of them?
• 5:30 — The Free Tools: What the Future of Faith listening tools are and how to download them at futureoffaith.org.
• 10:30 — Text to Connect: A step-by-step walkthrough of the emoji-based check-in tool — and how a color-coded Google Sheet can transform youth ministry.
• 14:00 — The Youth Minister’s Dilemma: A real-world portrait of a minister running on voice memos, Apple Notes, and reactive attention.
• 20:00 — Sacred Listening vs. Ministry with an Agenda: John challenges Josh: can you really listen without an end in mind?
• 23:30 — Time, Trust, Truth: The framework that flips the church’s traditional approach: belonging before believing.
• .31:00 — Tarot, Crystals, and the Spiritual-but-not-Religious: Why young people are finding spiritual systems on TikTok that the Church hasn’t figured out how to offer.
• 39:00 — Young People Aren’t Leaving the Church: Josh pushes back: their parents left. The generation the Church is trying to reach was never there.
• 42:00 — The Church Is Answering Questions Nobody Is Asking: John on the disconnect between pulpit priorities and what young people actually need.
• 57:00 — AI and the Future of Trust: Why artificial intelligence will push the locus of trust lower — toward one-on-one relationships — and what that means for the Church.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

For sharing on social media or in your community:

“I want to be useful, not interesting. — Josh Packard”

“Belonging comes before believing. It goes time, trust, truth. — Josh Packard”

“The church is often answering questions that nobody is asking. — Fr. John”

“They’re not leaving the church. Their parents left. — Josh Packard”

“There are armies of PhDs who are not trying to make Instagram better. They’re trying to make you look at Instagram more. — Josh Packard”

“If we spend enough time with you, if we get to know you, if we’re in a relationship with you, we can build trust with you — and then I can get to share with you the truth that is so beautiful that I want you to know. — Josh Packard”

 RESOURCES & LINKS

Future of Faith

futureoffaith.org

Sign up for the newsletter to receive updates on new tools and research. (Josh guarantees it will contain the most emojis of any newsletter you receive this year.)

ORGANIZATIONS MENTIONED

• Spring Tide Research Institute — National data on youth and faith
• NCEA — National Catholic Educational Association
• Rooted Good / Gone for Good — Church property reinvention (Mark Elson)
• Bricks and Mortals — Sacred spaces reimagined (Kate Toth, New York City)
• Young Life — Parachurch outreach model, including the folding table approach
• Hallow — Catholic prayer and meditation app
• com — Interdenominational prayer app

RESEARCH REFERENCED

• National Study of Youth and Religion (Christian Smith, Notre Dame) — Source of the “moralistic therapeutic deism” framework
• Future of Faith listening and faith formation study — results forthcoming January 2025
• DeSales Media Discipleship Study — referenced throughout, showing Gen Z’s desire for in-person community and lower rates of personal prayer

PEOPLE MENTIONED

• Megan Bissell — Co-founder, Future of Faith
• Kedrin (Potter’s House, Dallas) — Developer of the time/trust/truth framework
• Alessandro — Upcoming guest on the Religion to Reality webinar series
• Shannon Hopkins — Key figure at Rooted Good with UK church experience

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Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.